When you say "the immigration issue should be faced," you surely realize that will mean different things to different people.

What exactly do you see as the issue?

And what do you think we need to do to face it?

What should be the overall goal of our nation on immigration?

What is more, although Family Reunification may not be abolished, it is being restricted and de-emphasized. Some in government view it as a loop-hole through which many might pass who have less quantifiable value to our government. Would you like a person to rate your own mother or father's worthiness to be in America? And how highly would they rate anyway?

This point system commodifies people in terms of their useful...

When you say "the immigration issue should be faced," you surely realize that will mean different things to different people.

What exactly do you see as the issue?

And what do you think we need to do to face it?

What should be the overall goal of our nation on immigration?

What is more, although Family Reunification may not be abolished, it is being restricted and de-emphasized. Some in government view it as a loop-hole through which many might pass who have less quantifiable value to our government. Would you like a person to rate your own mother or father's worthiness to be in America? And how highly would they rate anyway?

This point system commodifies people in terms of their usefulness. It is really a diabolical thing to weigh a person's humanity against the skills they may or may not have.

Ah, but it wasn't America back then! America is the creation of these invading Europeans. Now I'm a friend to first Nations Peoples and American Indians and whatever else anyone my call themselves. I don't support the cruelty they suffered.

But invasion is not immigration. We would do well to remember that difference.

My ancestors were immigrants. So far as I know, they never killed an Indian. They worked hard, lived peaceably, and helped build this country. They were once the much feared "foreigners" but they became Americans. I could never deny the right to do the same to anyone for any reason.

In the hundreds of years that have passed, we have also become a part of the land. My relati...

Ah, but it wasn't America back then! America is the creation of these invading Europeans. Now I'm a friend to first Nations Peoples and American Indians and whatever else anyone my call themselves. I don't support the cruelty they suffered.

But invasion is not immigration. We would do well to remember that difference.

My ancestors were immigrants. So far as I know, they never killed an Indian. They worked hard, lived peaceably, and helped build this country. They were once the much feared "foreigners" but they became Americans. I could never deny the right to do the same to anyone for any reason.

In the hundreds of years that have passed, we have also become a part of the land. My relationship to the mountains and rivers, hills, valleys, beaches and oceans around my hometown of Seattle is just as close as that of any Coast Salish tribe.

I think there is a certain beauty in this process. I am very personally upset and saddened by the rhetoric and attitudes of the many people who want to close the gates and lock out the grandparents of future generations of Americans.

Actually, you get to what I see as the crux of the problem. Most of our ancestors got in through more permissive immigration policies. They came to America, worked on its farms and in its factories, and eventually created an American life.

Despite the morbidly humorous "abortion ergo immigration" argument, it seems that the agenda is not genuinely to stop immigration, instead it is to force immigrants to immigrate illegally. That way we do not have to afford them the same protections under the law and the same part of the American dream that they deserve.

This is the real travesty of our immigration policy. We push them into breaking the laws, and we know we are doing it, because we pass l...

Actually, you get to what I see as the crux of the problem. Most of our ancestors got in through more permissive immigration policies. They came to America, worked on its farms and in its factories, and eventually created an American life.

Despite the morbidly humorous "abortion ergo immigration" argument, it seems that the agenda is not genuinely to stop immigration, instead it is to force immigrants to immigrate illegally. That way we do not have to afford them the same protections under the law and the same part of the American dream that they deserve.

This is the real travesty of our immigration policy. We push them into breaking the laws, and we know we are doing it, because we pass laws that leave them no other choice. It would be like passing laws against eating or drinking. It is a pretext for the government to arbitrarily revoke the rights of American workers, and disenfranchise an entire group of people who are genuine Americans.

This is the real travesty of our immigration policy. We push them into breaking the laws, and we know we are doing it, because we pass laws that leave them no other choice.

Ouyangwulong the reason I think America is tighting legal immigration policy is because we are being over run by illegal immigration. In the southern states we are facing the closing of emergency rooms and the general errosion of public education due to over crowding as a direct result of illegal immigration.



What I am wondering is when it became a world wide right to be able to come to America. Amercian citizens have a right to decide who they want to come to their country. If they favor thos...

This is the real travesty of our immigration policy. We push them into breaking the laws, and we know we are doing it, because we pass laws that leave them no other choice.

Ouyangwulong the reason I think America is tighting legal immigration policy is because we are being over run by illegal immigration. In the southern states we are facing the closing of emergency rooms and the general errosion of public education due to over crowding as a direct result of illegal immigration.



What I am wondering is when it became a world wide right to be able to come to America. Amercian citizens have a right to decide who they want to come to their country. If they favor those who are better educated then that is there right.

One of the fundimental duties a government has is to enforce, protect, and manage it's borders. While I am in favor of a very permissive legal immigration policy I can not be in favor of rewarding criminal behavior no matter how honorable the modivations.

If our congress would get it's act together and crack down on illegal hiring and illegal immigrants then America would be able to absorb more legal immigrants. The effect would be a return to more lenient standards for legal immigrants.

Also lets not forget that America's poor are facing a much tougher age due to increased global competition. Our high paying factory jobs are moving overseas and thus America may not be able to sustain itself if it keeps recieving immigrants that have little to no education.

Sometimes we have to make decisions that hurt one group and help another. When a government makes these decisions they should always try to help their own citizens.

Health care and public education have been eroded by the unwillingness of the government (most prominently the Republican party) to allocate tax dollars to it, and regulate the role corporations play in it.

The problem with health care is systemic. Insurance companies play a large role in this. To blame illegal aliens for the shortcoming of our medical system is just plain wrong. These problems are the same even in areas with no illegal aliens. The fact that insurance companies are given a free hand in the medical industry to see to their profits first and the welfare of their customers second is a major cause for this. The fact that the government stubbornly refuses to provide public heal...

Health care and public education have been eroded by the unwillingness of the government (most prominently the Republican party) to allocate tax dollars to it, and regulate the role corporations play in it.

The problem with health care is systemic. Insurance companies play a large role in this. To blame illegal aliens for the shortcoming of our medical system is just plain wrong. These problems are the same even in areas with no illegal aliens. The fact that insurance companies are given a free hand in the medical industry to see to their profits first and the welfare of their customers second is a major cause for this. The fact that the government stubbornly refuses to provide public health care to its underprivileged citizens and residents is another.

Further more, there has been a concentrated offensive long in the works by the conservative elements of society against the public education system, for many reasons. First, it mandates equality and desegregation, which many Southern conservatives opposed in the 1950s. Second, it does not allow for dogmatic religious indoctrination, which many religious conservatives desire. Third, it allocates public tax dollars to general welfare, a concept that many conservatives oppose on the grounds that it constitutes "big government spending."

The promotion of vouchers for private schools which do not obey the laws of the nation, the preference for tax cuts over education spending, and the attacks on the secular, scientific independence of the education system have all degraded the quality of public education. Consider, for an example, the No Child Left Behind plan. It imposes standards on schools with punishments, but makes no provisions to improve those schools. It is simply a pretext to cut funding to under-preforming schools.

In my opinion, the Republican agenda has created all three problems, and to blame the problems on each other overlooks the fundamental failure of their ideology.

You ask: when did it become a world wide right to come to America?

Answer: 1776. This is one of the principles that our country was founded on. It was one held dear by the early colonists who fled persecution or desperate poverty in Europe. If we do not stand for these principles, we have undermined the greatness and justness of our own nation.

We all know the famous words by Emma Lazarus inscribed at the base of the Statue of Liberty. Is there anything more American than an open door to the immigrants of the world who have no place to go?

Many of them really do face no other choice. Before my grandfather's family left Slovakia in the 1930s, they saw their neighbors murdered on their doo...

You ask: when did it become a world wide right to come to America?

Answer: 1776. This is one of the principles that our country was founded on. It was one held dear by the early colonists who fled persecution or desperate poverty in Europe. If we do not stand for these principles, we have undermined the greatness and justness of our own nation.

We all know the famous words by Emma Lazarus inscribed at the base of the Statue of Liberty. Is there anything more American than an open door to the immigrants of the world who have no place to go?

Many of them really do face no other choice. Before my grandfather's family left Slovakia in the 1930s, they saw their neighbors murdered on their doorsteps. If my ancestors, who would have failed these criteria we oppose today, had not come to America the Gypsies would have died in Hitler's concentration camps, the Slavs would have died in Stalin's gulags, and the Irish would have starved in the great famine, and I would cease to exist altogether.

America stands for freedom, and equality, not elitism and discrimination. The day that changes, to me, it will no longer be America.

In California we had 26 emergency rooms close their doors between the years of 2000-2004. 24 of those emergency rooms were in Southern California where there is the highest concentration of illegal immigrants.
All the hospitals in question cited the reason for closing the emergency rooms was that it was too expensive to run them since uninsured people were using them as primary health care.

Don't get me wrong it isn't just illegal immigrants doing this but we have a duty to American citizens we do not have this same duty to illegal immigrants.

I disagree whole heartily with your assertion that America must welcome anyone and everyone who wants to come here because of an excerpt of a ...

In California we had 26 emergency rooms close their doors between the years of 2000-2004. 24 of those emergency rooms were in Southern California where there is the highest concentration of illegal immigrants.
All the hospitals in question cited the reason for closing the emergency rooms was that it was too expensive to run them since uninsured people were using them as primary health care.

Don't get me wrong it isn't just illegal immigrants doing this but we have a duty to American citizens we do not have this same duty to illegal immigrants.

I disagree whole heartily with your assertion that America must welcome anyone and everyone who wants to come here because of an excerpt of a poem inscribed at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty.

America should have a lot of immigrants but there should be controls in place to regulate the flow and quality of those immigrants. Otherwise our social systems will be over run.

Immigration is what made this country great and will continue to do so but it must be regulated and controlled so that it doesn't sprial out of control.

I agree wholeheartedly that under-insured Americans are a problem. However, that's not the same as illegal immigrants. Consider that both illegal alliens and American working poor often live in the same areas, out of necessity, because of low cost housing and the availability of work. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't like 40% of Americans under-insured or uninsured?

Practically, I agree with you: there will always need to be some laws and protocols regulating immigration, simply to maintain order in the international order. However, philosophically, I cannot.

America was created as a refuge, a land of promise for those who had no promise, a melting pot of outcasts and underclasses. That...

I agree wholeheartedly that under-insured Americans are a problem. However, that's not the same as illegal immigrants. Consider that both illegal alliens and American working poor often live in the same areas, out of necessity, because of low cost housing and the availability of work. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't like 40% of Americans under-insured or uninsured?

Practically, I agree with you: there will always need to be some laws and protocols regulating immigration, simply to maintain order in the international order. However, philosophically, I cannot.

America was created as a refuge, a land of promise for those who had no promise, a melting pot of outcasts and underclasses. That spirit, with the accompanying values of freedom, equality, and the right to own property were enshrined in our constiution by our founding fathers with they idea of welcoming those to our country who could find neither hope nor home in the rest of the world.

Although it may have been marred by racism, the American immigration system largely reflected those values up until the latter half of the twentieth century.

I appreciate that you are not one of those "America for the Americans" kind of isolationists (and that is very important) I still worry that what you are proposing might set a dangerous ideological precedent, where we begin to look at immigrants not on the basis of their intrinsic human dignity, but how we can use them. Doesn't this reduce them to a mere means?

What would be a way to regulate immigration (as is necessary) with out putting a dollar price (which is what this point system essentially does) on each of those applying to come to America?

ouyangwulong:

But invasion is not immigration. We would do well to remember that difference.

Also Illegal immigration is not legal immigration. I am for making it easier for immigrants to come here. I would support a wall with entry posts every few miles where immigrants can check in legally. What we have now is a disaster and it cannot stand. Ouyangwulong, to suggest those that oppose the staus quo are anti-immigrant is disingenuous. I would suggest those that support easier access to America in an orderly and legal way are the ones that are fighting to keep these illegal immigrants from being used and mistreated. The excuses made for illegal- immigration sound eerily similar...

ouyangwulong:

But invasion is not immigration. We would do well to remember that difference.

Also Illegal immigration is not legal immigration. I am for making it easier for immigrants to come here. I would support a wall with entry posts every few miles where immigrants can check in legally. What we have now is a disaster and it cannot stand. Ouyangwulong, to suggest those that oppose the staus quo are anti-immigrant is disingenuous. I would suggest those that support easier access to America in an orderly and legal way are the ones that are fighting to keep these illegal immigrants from being used and mistreated. The excuses made for illegal- immigration sound eerily similar to the arguments made to support slavery.
This is not about immigration. It is about unsecured, open borders and free, unlimited accesss to employment, goverrnment programs and benefits, while obtaining these things with falsified documents.

Thanks for keeping me honest Willhelm. We can all agree that the status quo needs to be changed, since the situation of millions of immigrants entering the country illegally benefits nobody of clean conscience.

The immigration issue is also complicated by the fact that there are in fact a great multitude of different opinions, and none of them seem to be based in obvious partisan or religious dogma. For instance, I think Bane and I agree on the details, but may differ over philosophy.

You and I are in agreement about the problem but perhaps differ over what we think should be done about it. I believe that most illegal immigrants would prefer not to break the law, and in fact break the law ...

Thanks for keeping me honest Willhelm. We can all agree that the status quo needs to be changed, since the situation of millions of immigrants entering the country illegally benefits nobody of clean conscience.

The immigration issue is also complicated by the fact that there are in fact a great multitude of different opinions, and none of them seem to be based in obvious partisan or religious dogma. For instance, I think Bane and I agree on the details, but may differ over philosophy.

You and I are in agreement about the problem but perhaps differ over what we think should be done about it. I believe that most illegal immigrants would prefer not to break the law, and in fact break the law far less than the average American college student. I don't believe a wall would be necessary if we provided them a viable legal pathway to entry, which they currently don't have. Although many may not realize it, but it is currently very difficult for the average Mexican to immigrate legally to the US.

My concern is first and foremost with those who I don't expect to find in such a sophisticated forum as this: those who want to actually keep immigrants out of America. However, we, more reasonable people, might actually be able to come up with some useful ideas.

Perhaps we can start the compromise here. I can agree with you that we shouldn't reward those who break the law, but what can be done to compassionately aid the plight of those who are already here?

As for the future, I propose that we open up our strict immigration policy to allow the would-be illegal immigrants an honest and fair opportunity to become legal immigrants. I think the point system proposed is neither honest nor fair, but I do recognize that we will need some regulation.

So I'm open to suggestions: can anyone propose some regulations that might ease immigration restrictions while still controlling things in a way that is fair to the underprivileged, not just the educate elite?

So I'm open to suggestions: can anyone propose some regulations
that might ease immigration restrictions while still controlling things
in a way that is fair to the underprivileged, not just the educate
elite?

As I stated earlier, I think the best solution is a compromise between an airtight and 100% secure border with entry posts every few miles where people can check in and out easily on a temporary basis. Also, we need to streamline and expedite the process for legally becoming a citizen with an emphasis on assimilation.

I believe this type of proposal would be supported by a vast majority. It is a win-win for all parties, it will help our economy, help people from South...

So I'm open to suggestions: can anyone propose some regulations
that might ease immigration restrictions while still controlling things
in a way that is fair to the underprivileged, not just the educate
elite?

As I stated earlier, I think the best solution is a compromise between an airtight and 100% secure border with entry posts every few miles where people can check in and out easily on a temporary basis. Also, we need to streamline and expedite the process for legally becoming a citizen with an emphasis on assimilation.

I believe this type of proposal would be supported by a vast majority. It is a win-win for all parties, it will help our economy, help people from South of the border countries to easily become citizens, lighten the burden on our government programs, and create a way for temporary workers to contribute taxes.

To me it seems the solution to this problem is simple. My main concern is there does not seem to be a desire to actually put something in place that works.

Actually, you get to what I see as the crux of the problem. Most of our
ancestors got in through more permissive immigration policies. They
came to America, worked on its farms and in its factories, and
eventually created an American life.

The difference between the two eras is the basis for our debate today. The virtue of assimilation that existed then seems to have been replaced with the vice of balkanization. The latter is a threat to the American experiment and rightly provokes unease. If the emphasis can be returned to the former virtue, the economic problems that have been posted here could easily be addressed.

Immigrants may have been forced into their individual ghe...

Actually, you get to what I see as the crux of the problem. Most of our
ancestors got in through more permissive immigration policies. They
came to America, worked on its farms and in its factories, and
eventually created an American life.

The difference between the two eras is the basis for our debate today. The virtue of assimilation that existed then seems to have been replaced with the vice of balkanization. The latter is a threat to the American experiment and rightly provokes unease. If the emphasis can be returned to the former virtue, the economic problems that have been posted here could easily be addressed.

Immigrants may have been forced into their individual ghettos in times past, but it was always their dream to break out and join the mainstream. This does not seem to be as true today. The American experiment fosters a melting pot, not a stew pot.

OOPS - I got online 2 months ago

2. Frequently these folks are badly taken advantage of because they do not have papers.

3. What is good, fair, and just? That is what we should attempt, knowing that the Justice system is only able to enforce laws. (Nebulous statement)

4. In modern economic system our value as a worker is commodified. That does not but can dehumanise us.

5. Living in an area of the country with a large hispanic population, I have experienced racial discrimination. Frequently it was directed at me. My father was born in latin America. I speak spanish well, but I have blond hair and blue eyes.

6. I believe that citizenship is important to the individu...

OOPS - I got online 2 months ago

2. Frequently these folks are badly taken advantage of because they do not have papers.

3. What is good, fair, and just? That is what we should attempt, knowing that the Justice system is only able to enforce laws. (Nebulous statement)

4. In modern economic system our value as a worker is commodified. That does not but can dehumanise us.

5. Living in an area of the country with a large hispanic population, I have experienced racial discrimination. Frequently it was directed at me. My father was born in latin America. I speak spanish well, but I have blond hair and blue eyes.

6. I believe that citizenship is important to the individuals, as well as the country. Many of the Mexican immigrants that I know have made little effort to become a citizen, and I believe it is quite easy to do.
There are many classes given in this area, but they are poorly attended. Why make the effort? Almost all the benefits are given to legal residents.

7. English as a Second Language - A gross fairlure. The only study of it's effectiveness was shut down in California before it was half done. The Socialogists
could foresee the conclusion that it was counter productive. Total immersion has been shown to be far better, in terms of learning the language, and in terms of academic learning. It continues to this day because there is federal funding attached. Every administrator wants "free" money.

Harrumph! Next time I will try to write some ideas for solving some of the problems, instead of stating problems.