 masbury says: "Arguments over whether U.S. forces can prevail in Iraq bypass a truth that no amount of media spin can change: The U.S. war effort in Iraq has always been illegitimate and fundamentally wrong." Gotta love it. The war is lost, The surge won't work. The surge is working because of Iran. And now...well it doesn't matter if the surge is working. Any change in Iraq has nothing to do with the Surge, thus the Surge was and is irrelevant. Well jeesh, than any change in the climate has nothing to do with CO2. CO2 is irrelevant. I suspect if I made that argument you could point to a study or collection of facts that would prove otherwise. Just like the facts on the ground prove that the Surge is working. You on the other hand can produce no data to suggest the surge is anything but a success. What? What does that even mean? There is plenty of data, but I will not repeat it here since you will ignore it. All good reasons for going there have proven false. All justification for a just war are lost. Are Americans content with the price they have paid? The BBC's the Power of Nightmare made clear the close relationship between al Qaeda and the NeoCons. How each needed the other. in 2004 l Qaeda played its part again in getting Bush re-elected. In may already be doing the same in 2008. Now al Qaeda is giving the US-NATO forces a dubbing in Afghanistan. It can switch at will while its opponent is a lumber giant killing the wrong people. Any perception that the surge is working in Iraq while next door it's clearly loosing is to be as blind as Bush is a deceiver. What fool will next predict the war is over? Sillysam? sillysam, I believe you are missing the point entirely here. The success or failure of any specific strategy in an illegal and immoral act of agression does not in any way adjust how right or wrong the invasion was. In one breath you seem to be trying to install arguments into the mouths of others: Gotta love it. The war is lost, The surge won't work. The surge is working because of Iran. And now...well it doesn't matter if the surge is working.(we call this a straw man argument) ...and in the next you are actually producing completely nonsensical comparisons to support your point of view. A more apt analogy would be to ask whether or not it makes it okay if a bank ro... I am not missing the point. I know what your point is. The non-sensical point was to point out Rats silly logic. My point is that the left is grasping at straws. They, you , were hoping it wouldn't work and when it did you had to back peddle to the unjust war argument, "well, we shouldn't have been there in the first place." Fine. You are welcome to believe that. But first you have to admit that the surge worked. More importantly, you should be happy that the surge worked because Iraq is on the way to being a stable nation and an ally in the Middle East. It is good news and all you can say is, well we shouldn't have been there. It doesn't matter anymore. As for putting arguments i... sam....forget it. Could we not have predicted this?? It's what they have to do in order to continue the hate, illegal, stolen, warmongering, etc.... Save your breath and lower your blood pressure. Unless, of course, you like the bantering. :~) "surge success is irrelevant"....that's just pitiful. Our core disagreement is on the morality of the war. Those of us who see it as immoral will see any continuation of it as more of the same. Pre-emptive war has been held to be morally wrong for more than a thousand years. Battering more people into submission won't make it right or good. You can't kill your way out of unjust killing. Amen Reverend, Amen! Thanks, friend! And cjartists - that's good, clear writing you did there: The success or failure of any specific strategy in an illegal and I am so grateful for the author's call to return to the main point - the immorality of the war - rather than getting into the fight over who has the right numbers about the surge's results. I feel like he's helping me see the forest instead of the trees only, and avoid a side issue that hides the real principles involved. I think I actually found this clip through Abailart, who quoted an earlier part of it yesterday in a comment here. Good find, Abailart! Well, tell that to the Arab nations that attacked Israel, to Iran who is threatening all things Western, to Al-Qaeda who attacked the US. Take the pseudo-moral high ground. War is so immoral. History is replete with millions who would agree; but that didn't stop the tyrants from moving against people who were weak and/or docile. Get ready; it's coming. OH, and "illegitimate"? take it up with your Congress. And hindsight is 20/20. Now we are back to fighting the political battle that should have ended the day the war began. We shouldn't invade. There are no terrorists in Iraq. This is an illegal war. Our troops are murderers. Iraq was not a threat. We should leave. This is a war we cannot win. We should cut and run. The Surge won't work. Our troops are murderers. The Surge is not working. There is no political reconciliation. The Surge has failed. Now - This is an immoral war and it doesn't matter if the surge is successful. Unfortunately, the argument never began in earnest, thanks to the zeal that sprang from 9/11, the President and Vice President's obfuscation of intel, and the Congress's getting swept up in the moment and failing to do its homework. If we don't have it, we'll chuck another 4,000 Americans into holes in the ground next time something equally crafty comes along, and damage the lives of tens of thousands more. It is our habit. That is fine for you to think. But the world changed after America's war for Independence despite people like you. The world changed after America's war between the States despite people like you. The world changed after WW2 despite people like you. It changed after we won the cold war despite people like you. it will change after the Middle East is transformed and brought into the modern world. Like Germany, Japan, and most of the nations of the former Soviet Bloc they will be our friends and people like you will continue to fight for the preservation of evil in the world. And through our "habit" will prevail a more peaceful world as has progressively been the case. And your "habit" will be to resist good and appease evil. A long discussion on a topic that started as a whisper after 9/11. I agree that it shouldn't have happened and was screaming at the TV the night our "sucked in" politicians announced that. The above comments and the clip did not mention "oil" once. I know the discussion was about an invasion, but I am still surprised that oil wasn't mentioned as the one and only reason for invasion ( well, maybe so that Dick's buddies at Haliburton would prosper, too). The world changed after WW2 despite people like youMm. kenstipe, let's look at the world in the years after WW2: How was it for the millions Stalin, our ally, murdered? How was it for the 2 million German women Russians raped? How was it for the entire Eastern block, severed from the world behind the iron curtain? How was it for starving Africa? How was it for French Indochina? Or for Laos, on which the USA would drop more tons of bombs than in all the world during WW2? How was if for China, which was about to submerge into the dark waters of totalitarian communism? How was it for [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax]Ir... slogans of American greatness, rather than facing and working to improve the reality that American influence on the world has indeed been sometimes great, but also - and still - sometimes selfish, anti-democratic, illegal, and brutal. If we shush and ignore those, we're doomed to repeat them. It seems to me that squaring our shoulders and facing the truth about our nation is far more likely to result in a greater America than is waving the flag under the illusion that its impact has been primarily positive. You poor soul. I am not a Conservative. Doesn't change the point: retreat into patriotic over-simplifications of history lacks integrity and is more like to perpetuate the worst about America than to bring out the best. |
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