The biblical story... a child can understand. (Or, what believers believe, and why atheists don't.)

Very Catholic not for comsuption clever!

I can't imagine why anyone would choose to attend a church like this unless it was to perpetuate their own hate and vindictiveness.

@chedare

I'm speaking with a Catholic right here on CM that claims the Catholic faith is the only authority on the bible and its interpretation because of the lineage of Jesus though "His" Church.

But the point of the video is the same story of the bible with the names changed. It doesn't matter if its Catholic or any of the other denominations, its the same story.

An authority has person A tortured and punished in order to save person B from the punishment, even though person B had nothing to do with it in the first place.

And this authority is where some people claim to get their morals. The whole thing is just absurd.

If God was a tyrant, there isn't much one can do about it.

Christians are not being punished for what Eve did, but all of her offspring(all mankind) inherited the sin nature. They commit sin all on their own without help from Eve, it is in their blood. She ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Maybe things would be better if she chose a different fruit, one that didn't give her that knowledge. But with knowledge comes responsibility and accountability.

If God can ,in the end,purge us of the sin nature, then I don't see the complaint. But if the life of the human spirit lasted only 70 odd years, I could see the point.Suffering here and now seems a small price to live forever.

@kat

Christians are not being punished for what Eve did, but all of her offspring(all mankind) inherited the sin nature.

Then how does punishing a third party take away the sin nature of the second party? And if said sin nature is really taken away, why is it contingent on belief, when the punishment was already paid?

And if the punishment was already paid, that took away the sin nature, why do we all (including born-again Christians, who believe) still have the sin nature?

@ Ace

The sin nature wasn't taken away, but the sin itself is forgiven if the sinner asks for forgiveness. Supposedly, if one has been given the Holy Spirit and follows its guidance, the sin nature can be "worked out" of them over time. That is how I understand it.

@kat

"The sin nature wasn't taken away, but the sin itself is forgiven..."

Then how does punishing a third (innocent) party "forgive" the sin nature of the second party? And if said sin nature is really forgiven, why is it contingent on "asking", when the punishment was already paid?

[In other words, what was the point of the punishment if the forgiveness is contingent on asking? Would a person be forgiven if asked, but no innocent person was punished? Again, why the necessity to punish the innocent in order to forgive the guilty?]

And if the punishment was already paid, that forgave the sin nature, why do we all (including born-again Christians, who believe) still have the sin nature?

Whoops. Let me refine that..

"The sin nature wasn't taken away, but the sin itself is forgiven..."

Then how does punishing a third (innocent) party "forgive" the sin of the second party? And if said sin is really forgiven, why is it contingent on "asking", when the punishment was already paid?

...

He "paid" the price for all the sin. In other words, a sinner has an advocate who has suffered the punishment already so that the price does not have to be payed twice. The sinner has a way out of the punishment, he can avoid the suffering associated with the punishment .He can "get around it".

But if a sinner "loves" and not "hates" his sin, then it becomes "part" of him because he refuses to be separated from it. This means he actually made the choice to suffer the punishment eventhough it is not necessary to do so.

"He "paid" the price for all the sin."

Just out of curiosity...

Then how much did the guy next to him pay, who went through the same torture, carried the same cross on the same streets, same beatings, same crucifixion, and then went to the same place (hell)?

Except, since he's still there (in hell) and still paying, how could the payment of Jesus pay for everybody when his payment was less than that of the person next to him?

Can you see how it just doesn't work?

It is only paid for for those who want it. It is an individual choice, not a handout.

"It is only paid for for those who want it. It is an individual choice, not a handout."

Then if I opt to pay for my OWN sins, why should I go to eternal hell [meaning it can NEVER be paid off] when (see Jesus' payment) it far exceeds the price? Jesus didn't pay that much.

What Jesus paid is a tiny fraction of eternity for ONE individual, let alone for billions.

Plus, he'd have to make the payment for each person. See, if each person owed $100 and there are a six billion people, he'd have to pay the sum of (6billion x $100), not $100 once!

It still doesn't add up.

Ok, if you want to have logic as your only measure, and assume that man has a full grasp on knowledge, then let us put it this way:

God knew beforehand how many men would ask for forgiveness and would gain salvation, so He made Jesus pay for the sum of the total sins of those who will enter his kingdom.

What I meant to say is that if man has a full grasp on the knowledge of fairness .............

"God knew beforehand how many men would ask for forgiveness and would gain salvation, so He made Jesus pay for the sum of the total sins of those who will enter his kingdom."

If the punishment for sin is "e t e r n i t y" in hell, then Jesus has yet to pay for one man. See my point now?

Yes, I see your point. It makes sense if you look at it the way that man understands the concept of time.

The "god" of the Bible says more about the people that believe in him, than about God.

Ok, if you want to have logic as your only measure...

Yes, well... ummm... what other measures do you have in mind?

Yes, I see your point. It makes sense if you look at it the way that man understands the concept of time.

And yet, you imply it does not make sense if one looks at it in this other way. Could you please enlighten us and expound on your utterly unique concept of time, one hitherto unknown to humankind?

Time is not a fixed entity. We already know that it changes at the speed of light, so maybe it changes in other ways as well.
And if God created wisdom(logic being a small part), that means it is subservient to a higher body of knowledge, guided by a set of rules we may not be aware of. I have reason to believe that "love" is that higher body of knowledge. If we know everything about love, there would be no war. So, we are not all knowing as a species.

All we know is all we know.

HOW MANY ANGELS ON A PIN-HEAD?
THANKS.