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10-18-2009 11:09 AM
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cptenaud says:
A week ago, eight U.S. troops were killed at a base near Kamdesh, a town near Wanat. There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.

Army Col. Wayne Shanks, a military spokesman in Afghanistan, said a review of the battle at Kamdesh is under way. "It is too early to make any assumptions regarding what did or didn't work correctly," he said.

Complaints about the weapons the troops carry, especially the M4, aren't new. Army officials say that when properly cleaned and maintained, the M4 is a quality weapon that can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur.

The M4 is a shorter, lighter version of the M16, which made its debut during the Vietnam war. Roughly 500,000 M4s are in service, making it the rifle troops on the front lines trust with their lives.
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10-18-2009 11:12 AM
cptenaud
Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., a leading critic of the M4, said Thursday the Army needs to move quickly to acquire a combat rifle suited for the extreme conditions U.S. troops are fighting in.

U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.

"The M4 has served us well but it's not as good as it needs to be," Coburn said.

Battlefield surveys show that nearly 90 percent of soldiers are satisfied with their M4s, according to Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, head of the Army office that buys soldier gear. Still, the rifle is continually being improved to make it even more reli...
10-18-2009 11:18 AM
cptenaud
Cpl. Jonathan Ayers and Spc. Chris McKaig were firing their M4s from a position the soldiers called the "Crow's Nest." The pair would pop up together from cover, fire half a dozen rounds and then drop back down.

On one of these trips up, Ayers was killed instantly by an enemy round. McKaig soon had problems with his M4, which carries a 30-round magazine.

"My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

The soldiers also had trouble with ...
10-19-2009 12:20 PM
Spiritualmonkey
The H&K 416 may be exactly the weapon the US army needs; operates like a colt, takes the maintenance of an Kalashnikov. Bolt operated, not gas like the M4, so carbon fouling is not a problem.

Delta is carrying these. Let's hope the rest of our troops get something this good soon. I may have reservations about America's imperial ventures abroad, killing foreigners and breaking their shit, but I still think we should arm our soldiers with weapons that don't jam.

Didn't we go through this in Vietnam? Why is the biggest, most expensive military in the world arming it's soldiers with a 40-year-old design that still jams?
10-19-2009 12:34 PM
cjartists
My whole time in the military, I never carried "the best money could buy" of anything. What I always had was "the cheapest we could get away with". Unless it's quality was driven by procurement regulations (being done away with by the day now), I often found myself stuck with parts that they wouldn't put on the shelf at wal-mart, the quality was so bad.

This is a logical outcome of corporate-driven warfare, and the exact type of thing Eisenhower was trying to warn us about.
10-19-2009 4:37 PM
ratilfar
The M4 is not a bad weapon per say (based on the M-16), but it's been so heavily modified, loaded with junk and I bet many of these rifles have seen years of use in multiple conflicts. Eventually the wear will show and in the worse possible moment.

But as long as the Pentagon is buying F-22s and new nuclear powered aircraft carriers, the basics, life rifles, will fall to the bottom of the acquisitions pile.
10-19-2009 7:55 PM
tazmanium
Oh man, when your barrel turns white hot, you've got problems. They tell you in basic training> short bursts<. They were short of manpower. hard to blame it on weapons that were at the point of turning molten.
10-19-2009 10:36 PM
citizenbfk
Another problem, I'd suspect, was that if these small arms remain defective the Army would try to cover it up.

10-19-2009 10:40 PM
citizenbfk
Note: From link of another poster in this thread:

"In July 2007, the US Army announced a limited competition between the M4 carbine, FN SCAR, HK416, and the previously-shelved HK XM8. Ten examples of each of the four competitors were involved. Each weapon was fired for 60,000 rounds in an "extreme dust environment." The purpose of the shoot-off was for assessing future needs, not to select a replacement for the M4.[3][4] The XM8 scored the best, with only 127 stoppages in 60,000 total rounds, the FN SCAR Light had 226 stoppages, while the HK416 had 233 stoppages. The M4 carbine scored "significantly worse" than the rest of the field with 882 stoppages."
10-21-2009 12:56 AM
clip-on-tie
Most of the country has moved on. With calls now to get out of Afghanistan, it’s like we’ve forgotten what started everything in the first place.

The first World Trade Center bombing was supposed to be the unheeded wakeup call for 9/11, and now I’m afraid 9/11 will end up being the not completely heeded warning to something bigger. We as a country were changed by 9/11, but probably not enough to keep it from happening again.

Obama promised he’d lose us the war in Iraq, but I guess liberals will just have to settle on us losing in Afghanistan.
10-21-2009 9:57 AM
cptenaud
So clip on. What military were you in beside none.You talk like so many big bad neocons who never served one day in the military.Wave your flag and pretend your tough. As long as it is someone else that fights your wars. I fought your war in Vietnam, only to see the real truth there. And I saw how our weaponry was defective. Too many young kids died because they had to field strip their rifles while being shot at.

So if you are so gung ho about this war. Then volunteer to go over there. And don't tell me your too old. Because I know you are just a coward.
10-21-2009 12:08 PM
ratilfar
"Lose us the war in Iraq"

If pulling out of that god-forsaken war of Imperial aggression is a "loss" I hate to see what a win is. Mind you it was Bush that promised for years to pull out (when the get Saddam, after the elections, stand up-stand down) which eventually lead to the current state-of-forces agreement sign under the Bush administration (which in part lead to the infamous shoe throwing incident) because the Iraqis don't want the U.S. in their country.

But then again, somebody who can't process basic data can't be expected to learn/understand history AS IT HAPPENS!
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