I'm guessing you haven't read the site? In one respect, you are quite right, there is more in the bible than rational argument - there is confusion, contradiction, immorality, genocide, bad science, mythology, plagiarism of other religions, and plain bad logic. Anything in the bilbe that can be deemed as "good" or "moral" can just as easily be had without religion.

But, to say that reason is a bad master would mean that you would have to accept Faith as an evil dictator because through faith you have no choice but to believe and accept regardless of evidence, proof, or claim. Reason allows you to at least determine an understanding through comprehension.

The article even touches on "faith...

I'm guessing you haven't read the site? In one respect, you are quite right, there is more in the bible than rational argument - there is confusion, contradiction, immorality, genocide, bad science, mythology, plagiarism of other religions, and plain bad logic. Anything in the bilbe that can be deemed as "good" or "moral" can just as easily be had without religion.

But, to say that reason is a bad master would mean that you would have to accept Faith as an evil dictator because through faith you have no choice but to believe and accept regardless of evidence, proof, or claim. Reason allows you to at least determine an understanding through comprehension.

The article even touches on "faith" vs "reason" :

Based on the usage of this word, it seems that faith is the process by which these questions are simply silenced or suppressed in the mind of the believers so that they can go on accepting what they’re told. In other words, faith is the suppression of critical thinking

it is irrational to attribute to God our own limitations

Yet god is described as a "jealous" god, a "vengeful" god, an "angry" god, a "loving" god, a "merciful" god, and a "wrathful" god. These are human characteristics. God is also suprised on occasion, which is odd for a being that is omniscient. The bible itself portrays god as an insane and petulant dictator with a bloodthirst that has caused entire nations to be wiped out. These are all quite human characteristics, certainly not what you'd expect from the creator of reality.

reading the Bible literally or considering God as a rational being will always result in fiction.

But isn't this a copout? Early people did, in fact, take the bible as literal (as do many believers today) and the common argument is that god is rational, we just don't have all the information so he seems irrational.

But you cannot argue that none of the bible can be taken literally. Some try to insist that the entire bible is metaphorical, but really, that's just wishful thinking for people losing the battle on defending their bible.

Taking the bible literal is a losing battle, but the bible does state some things as fact and non metaphorical, so in order to accept the bible a balance must be struck. But who decides what is literal and what is metaphorical? Not even clergy can agree on that. Which leads to the question of why god allows so much confusion for so many people that honestly just want to be devoted to god.

Anyway, this all goes back to the purpose of the site, which presents some pretty s...

But you cannot argue that none of the bible can be taken literally. Some try to insist that the entire bible is metaphorical, but really, that's just wishful thinking for people losing the battle on defending their bible.

Taking the bible literal is a losing battle, but the bible does state some things as fact and non metaphorical, so in order to accept the bible a balance must be struck. But who decides what is literal and what is metaphorical? Not even clergy can agree on that. Which leads to the question of why god allows so much confusion for so many people that honestly just want to be devoted to god.

Anyway, this all goes back to the purpose of the site, which presents some pretty solid arguments against the bible being more of a tool for control rather than anything divine in nature. I really suggest you give it a read.

It will take me a while to go through the site but I intend to look at it. I think we probably agree more than disagree. The polar oppositions of faith v. reason, of literality vs metaphors are not ones I am comfortable with. The Bible is used for all sorts of things socially and individually, you can't dispute that. If you take it out of the centrality it has to man people's lives it is one of very many expressions - modulated by translations, lost documents, etc - of the history of humanity's religious urges. It tells us more about human beings than 'God'. The contradictions in it greatly add to my doubts, but I see my doubts as crucial to untangling from reason! One thing I do believe is ...

It will take me a while to go through the site but I intend to look at it. I think we probably agree more than disagree. The polar oppositions of faith v. reason, of literality vs metaphors are not ones I am comfortable with. The Bible is used for all sorts of things socially and individually, you can't dispute that. If you take it out of the centrality it has to man people's lives it is one of very many expressions - modulated by translations, lost documents, etc - of the history of humanity's religious urges. It tells us more about human beings than 'God'. The contradictions in it greatly add to my doubts, but I see my doubts as crucial to untangling from reason! One thing I do believe is that there is absolutely no rational argument for belief in God (though reason itself may be reason enough).

The Bible is used for all sorts of things socially and individually, you can't dispute that.

True, but isn't it a problem that anyone can find something in the bible to support any claim? It's really why the bible is used so much, because there is no shortage of "proof" that a specific theological ideal is supported.

If you take it out of the centrality it has to man people's lives

I'm not sure if I fully understood this statement or not, but I'm given to take it as "the bible is so central in so many people's lives that to remove it would cause chaos" - sorry if I got that wrong. I want to respond based on what I "think" you said.

The problem with this is tha...

The Bible is used for all sorts of things socially and individually, you can't dispute that.

True, but isn't it a problem that anyone can find something in the bible to support any claim? It's really why the bible is used so much, because there is no shortage of "proof" that a specific theological ideal is supported.

If you take it out of the centrality it has to man people's lives

I'm not sure if I fully understood this statement or not, but I'm given to take it as "the bible is so central in so many people's lives that to remove it would cause chaos" - sorry if I got that wrong. I want to respond based on what I "think" you said.

The problem with this is that we are allowing a fiction to continue. I'm sure that many people simply did not know how they would survive without slaves to do their work but they did eventually recover and manage. Simply to allow the bible to go unchallenged because many people will find that what they thought they knew is wrong seems a like a very weak excuse. There are just far too many people out there who take advantage of those believers and use them to take advantage of others.

This reminds me of a story about some monkeys. Several monkeys in a cage found a banana hanging by a thread. If any monkey tried to get the fruit then men would appear with hoses and loud sounds and spray the monkeys. After awhile they stopped going for the bananna. They started replacing monkies with new ones and when the new ones would go for the banana the water and noise would happen. After awhile the monkeys would attack the new ones when they went for the fruit. Eventually all the monkeys were replaced yet anyone going for the fruit would get attacked. Why? because as far as any monkeys were concerned that's just the way it was always done.

debbyski
But also seeing the bible as a human product does nothing to prove that god is real. In fact, accepting the bible as a human product strongly supports the idea that what people think they know of god is completely false. Because the bible assigns attributes and characteristics to god then that gives us the ability to judge if the god described in that book is real or not. Denying a biblical god does not deny the existence of "a god".

You say the words "the reality of God for me" and this is the exact point. You have made a choice to believe, not by evidence and proof of claim, but through indoctrination and/or a desire or need because you like the idea of a god. Just because you wa...

debbyski
But also seeing the bible as a human product does nothing to prove that god is real. In fact, accepting the bible as a human product strongly supports the idea that what people think they know of god is completely false. Because the bible assigns attributes and characteristics to god then that gives us the ability to judge if the god described in that book is real or not. Denying a biblical god does not deny the existence of "a god".

You say the words "the reality of God for me" and this is the exact point. You have made a choice to believe, not by evidence and proof of claim, but through indoctrination and/or a desire or need because you like the idea of a god. Just because you want to believe does not make it truth.

You also say "the central premise" which means that you accept the biblical god based on the idea that IF the bible is true then he is real. Again, this does not prove that the bible is true, it only means that you've chosen to believe it.

The point is that religion has become ingrained in many lives and influences people from birth because everyone just accepts its true. When we examine the claims of religion we quickly see that the claims are false.

The problem is that people operate their lives based on the assumption that their religion is true and real. They make decisions on that assumptions that affects the lives of other people, many of which that do not share the same beliefs. Most of those effects are downright bloody, as history and current events will attest.

Religion simply is not some private personal matter that should be revered and respected. It effects everyone and as such it SHOULD be examined critically for truth because it effects so many. The truth of the matter is that when examined religion is revealed as false. This does not disprove god, but it does disprove the god that it describes and the demands/claims that god makes.

Thank you for your comments Oort; they are very thought provoking. As I said, I see the Bible as humanities response to the divine not God's response to us. I believe it is not God's witness to God (not a divine product) but two historical communites witnesses to God. I think the Bible is "culturally conditioned" meaning that the Bible uses the language and concepts of the cultures on which it took shape. So I believe that the Bible tells us how our spiritual ancestors saw things--not how God sees things. No one can really know God, " but I believe he can be experienced. You make a good point. Faith for some can mean a matter of the beliefs in your head--of whether one bel...

Thank you for your comments Oort; they are very thought provoking. As I said, I see the Bible as humanities response to the divine not God's response to us. I believe it is not God's witness to God (not a divine product) but two historical communites witnesses to God. I think the Bible is "culturally conditioned" meaning that the Bible uses the language and concepts of the cultures on which it took shape. So I believe that the Bible tells us how our spiritual ancestors saw things--not how God sees things. No one can really know God, " but I believe he can be experienced. You make a good point. Faith for some can mean a matter of the beliefs in your head--of whether one believes the right set of claims to be true. To me, faith is not a matter of the head, but a matter of the heart; the heart being a metaphor for a deep level of the self, a self below my thinking, feeling, and willing, my intellect, emotions, and volition. To see faith as belief not only obscures the other meanings, but also distorts the notion of faith itself.
Can I prove that God exists? Of course not. But I know I have experienced his character as a God of love and justice. And by love I simply don't mean being nice, but to have an edge, a passion for justice. To take God's love of justice seriously means to take justice seriously and to be aware that prolonged injustice has consequences.

But I know I have experienced his character as a God of love and justice

But have you really? Or have you simply assigned a feeling that is common in all people to that of an idea of god. Haven't you simply decided that you like the idea of a god looking over all and then decided what attributes of god best suit your ideal of one? For you it is love and justice.

On your thought of two communities that have provided witness to god, if this is so, then why can't they provide any credible evidence that they have done nothing more than you have - which is to assign characteristics to a god-image that they felt a god should have. The fact of the matter is that there is a ...

But I know I have experienced his character as a God of love and justice

But have you really? Or have you simply assigned a feeling that is common in all people to that of an idea of god. Haven't you simply decided that you like the idea of a god looking over all and then decided what attributes of god best suit your ideal of one? For you it is love and justice.

On your thought of two communities that have provided witness to god, if this is so, then why can't they provide any credible evidence that they have done nothing more than you have - which is to assign characteristics to a god-image that they felt a god should have. The fact of the matter is that there is a whole bunch of counter-evidence that can be found to refute their witnessing to god, most of that counter-evidence within the very scriptures they write. Outside of their writings there is nearly zero evidence to support their claims.

But I think you are discarding the idea of evidence and proof and relying more of an emotional feeling or experience - but this is a very subjective way to base a belief. As I stated at the beginning, I to experience many subjective feelings and emotions that mirror your own, but I feel no need to attribute them to some divine being. Today many people are recognizing the fallacy of religion and taking up a more "personal" belief in god that shifts belief away from the more common fear and reward version of god to a more hippyish love and peace form of god. Socially it is a more acceptable and lesser destructive form of religion, but in all reality, is it any truer or just a better idea?

One could go through the entire bible and rewrite it today to make sense and be more peaceful and to even alter it enough that there would be much more evidentiary proof - but would it mean it was any truer? Not really. It would simply mean people have learned to tell a better story. It would still diverge from reality.

Well, good questions Oort. And yes I have. In the sense that I have felt the political passion of the Bible in the form of justice and try to be a serious advocate for that, along with a concern for the environment and the non-human world. Charity means helping the victims. Justice asks "Why are there so many victims" and then seeks to change the causes of victimization; that is, the way the system is structured. Charity never offends, but a passion for justice often does. To me it's a transformation of sorts from thinking "the correct beliefs" will save me and the "incorrect beliefs" may get me in trouble. Moreover, when you think about it, faith as belief is relatively impotent, rel...

Well, good questions Oort. And yes I have. In the sense that I have felt the political passion of the Bible in the form of justice and try to be a serious advocate for that, along with a concern for the environment and the non-human world. Charity means helping the victims. Justice asks "Why are there so many victims" and then seeks to change the causes of victimization; that is, the way the system is structured. Charity never offends, but a passion for justice often does. To me it's a transformation of sorts from thinking "the correct beliefs" will save me and the "incorrect beliefs" may get me in trouble. Moreover, when you think about it, faith as belief is relatively impotent, relatively powerless. You can believe all the "right" things and be miserable. You can believe all the right things and still be relatively unchanged. Believing a set of claims to be true has very little transforming power. I don't see faith as believing as much as it is about the relationship of the self at its deepest level to God. Having said all of that, I'm not here to convince you to attribute all of this to a divine being. But for me, it mediates the good, the true, and the beautiful.

Too many people particularly 'faithful' believe what is 'in the bible, before they have read it, or without reading it at all. other people can take a few lines and create a new religion by claiming a new interpretation for a few lines. How many people who do not believe are still asked to swear on the Bible without believing it, yet their oath is considered binding. The old testament was written in Hebrew, the new in Greek. yet so many experts can give deep 'insight through a translation. I have seen that the text of the old testament can be laid out as a hologram (3D stack) and names relevant to today's historical events with different threads to take choice into account. How this could ha...

Too many people particularly 'faithful' believe what is 'in the bible, before they have read it, or without reading it at all. other people can take a few lines and create a new religion by claiming a new interpretation for a few lines. How many people who do not believe are still asked to swear on the Bible without believing it, yet their oath is considered binding. The old testament was written in Hebrew, the new in Greek. yet so many experts can give deep 'insight through a translation. I have seen that the text of the old testament can be laid out as a hologram (3D stack) and names relevant to today's historical events with different threads to take choice into account. How this could have happened may be subject to doubt, but there are researchers who have found examples. One of the researchers was an atheist mathematician (He may have been agnostic)-Michael Drosnin "Bible Codes"
There is a Jewish software program that lays out the text in Hebrew, with translations, and is mentioned in the book.
The Hebrews coming out of Egypt were a developing society they would grow into a civilization, not because of their honor, but because of a promise made to Abraham. They did not behave in a civilized manner. People often associate the threat of punishment with the ten commandments, but they were like a list of behaviors that were socially destructive. The law of the Levites was more like civil law to give a multitude of people cohesion. "Tenants were minding the house, and land of the owner. When workers were sent to check, they were killed, So the owner thought if I send my son surely they will not kill him. The workers were the prophets who were sent to warn the Israrelis were pushing their luck. They were not heroes while alive. While the bible is a collection of books, each was written at a time when people were much less sophisticated. Telling people from early civilizations about astrophysics, or genetics would be like telling a child about calculus.

One other thing has occurred to me is that the geneology of the Hebrews was Patriarchal, because the female line can be traced with mitochondrial DNA.
I still like the Sherlock Holmes theory that if you eliminate the impossible whatever is left, no matter how improbable must be true. but with things like the advances in technology there are so many things we find are possible that would not have been believed a short time ago. The bottom line is that because there is not what we consider to be absolute proof either way, everyone should have the right to their own opinion, on their own terms, without being coerced, with the capacity to change it if there is a clear contradiction, or subsequen...

One other thing has occurred to me is that the geneology of the Hebrews was Patriarchal, because the female line can be traced with mitochondrial DNA.
I still like the Sherlock Holmes theory that if you eliminate the impossible whatever is left, no matter how improbable must be true. but with things like the advances in technology there are so many things we find are possible that would not have been believed a short time ago. The bottom line is that because there is not what we consider to be absolute proof either way, everyone should have the right to their own opinion, on their own terms, without being coerced, with the capacity to change it if there is a clear contradiction, or subsequent evidence to the contrary. What is impossible can seem far more subjective than it once was.

@debbyski

I guess I'm stumped as to why you would take up a belief system like that. The majority of people have the bible that they draw upon and find validation from its long history. To me your beliefs are rooted in the bible, but you've decided to change them to what seems comfortable to you. It suggests that on one level you realize that religion is a lie, but on another you are unwilling/afraid to accept it so have merely created a newer and nicer one.

I don't say this in a nasty and mean way. It is an honest confusion of mine why people persist in their beliefs when confronted with, what seems to me, a very clear and undeniable revealing of religion. I can only comprehend that peopl...

@debbyski

I guess I'm stumped as to why you would take up a belief system like that. The majority of people have the bible that they draw upon and find validation from its long history. To me your beliefs are rooted in the bible, but you've decided to change them to what seems comfortable to you. It suggests that on one level you realize that religion is a lie, but on another you are unwilling/afraid to accept it so have merely created a newer and nicer one.

I don't say this in a nasty and mean way. It is an honest confusion of mine why people persist in their beliefs when confronted with, what seems to me, a very clear and undeniable revealing of religion. I can only comprehend that people maintain their faith simply because they are being stubborn and refuse to admit that they are wrong.

It stems from my understanding that we cannot prove or disprove god, but we can examine claims about god to see if they are legitimate. My experience shows that the claims are not legitimate and at best, if there is a god, he remains removed from humanity and no one can claim any knowledge of what god is.

Does that make sense? I'm often accused of hating god. That's ridiculous. I hate the hold that the need and desire to believe in a god has over people. It makes them sheep and easily controlled. It seems that so much wrong is done because of a need and desperation in people to validate their beliefs.

If god, the creator, does exist, then the characteristics and desires of that god are not to be found in human written theology. Such a being would not require priests and religion to relate any message. That message would be ingrained in our DNA or the very particles that make up this universe.

I guess that is why I have so little patience with believers. They work to confine god to their imagination. If there is a god-creator, then its ridiculous to believe it exists as bronze age people describe it. In my opinion.

oops, sorry, hit the wrong button. Let me try that again :

@tabsey

If people are either unsure of their position or of the "missionary"
position, they need to prove to themselves by convincing the other.

I have to completely disagree. Christians are motivated by the command to spread their word. They are told that it is to enlighten unbelievers and to enable anyone to find salvation through various means. Many choose not to be overtly preachy, but even those that remain silent present an invisible level of support. But by and large I do not think that believers look to convert people simply to validate their beliefs.

I am motivated to speak out against what I percieve is a wo...

oops, sorry, hit the wrong button. Let me try that again :

@tabsey

If people are either unsure of their position or of the "missionary"
position, they need to prove to themselves by convincing the other.

I have to completely disagree. Christians are motivated by the command to spread their word. They are told that it is to enlighten unbelievers and to enable anyone to find salvation through various means. Many choose not to be overtly preachy, but even those that remain silent present an invisible level of support. But by and large I do not think that believers look to convert people simply to validate their beliefs.

I am motivated to speak out against what I percieve is a world wide delusion of religion. I feel that people have been duped for generations and indoctrinated into not questioning their beliefs. I also believe that humans inherantly want some explanation for the unknown and the simple answer of "god did it" can be very simple and satisfying. I do not need conversion simply to validate what I believe. My validation comes from recognizing one more inconsistency or fallacy of religion. With each new discovery of evidence or logical conclusion I know that my eyes have been opened.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure that if a conversion to or from religion happens then there is a feeling of validation, but I do not believe that to be a driving force.

Does that make sense? I'm often accused of hating god. That's
ridiculous. I hate the hold that the need and desire to believe in a
god has over people. It makes them sheep and easily controlled. It
seems that so much wrong is done because of a need and desperation in
people to validate their beliefs.

Yes, that makes perfect sense! People can be so caught up in "fact fundamentalism" that if these all the biblical statements aren't factual then they aren't true; they are fantasty or even lies. This reasoning is a legacy of the Enlightenment, which led many in Western cluture to identify "the true" with "the factual". It doesn't take into account the [i]more-than-lite...

Does that make sense? I'm often accused of hating god. That's
ridiculous. I hate the hold that the need and desire to believe in a
god has over people. It makes them sheep and easily controlled. It
seems that so much wrong is done because of a need and desperation in
people to validate their beliefs.

Yes, that makes perfect sense! People can be so caught up in "fact fundamentalism" that if these all the biblical statements aren't factual then they aren't true; they are fantasty or even lies. This reasoning is a legacy of the Enlightenment, which led many in Western cluture to identify "the true" with "the factual". It doesn't take into account the more-than-literal meaning. Metaphor is about a surplus of meaning, not a deficiency of meaning. Parables are good examples. They invite the reader or listener to think. Take the parable of the good Samaritian, what do you think of a priest and a Levite who pass by a man who has been beaten up and lies half dead on the road from Jerusalem to Jerico? Is it just what you would expect from a priest and Levite because you don't think much of official religous functionaries? Or do you see their ethical dilemma at that moment regarding their obligation to help, but also their cultural obligation to avoid contact with a corpse (the man is specifically describe as "half dead"). And what do you think of an obligation like that when it gets in the way of being compassionate? Or the parable of the prodigal son, what do you think of a son who asks for his inheritance while his father is still alive and then squanders it in a foreign land? What do you think of a father who welcomes home a son like that by treating him so extravagantly? And what do you think of an older brother who resents what has happened? And what is this story all about?
Wisdom is not about knowledge or information. It's not about commandments or rules; even though it speaks about a way of life. (cont)

When I was 10 I decided there was a choice between God and Oblivion as a possibility.
I decided oblivion didn't hold a grudge.
I didn't go to the bible. When I was 5 after hearing about hell at Sunday school, I refused to go back.
I went to the source. I Thought (prayed) Hey God ! whoever you are if you're so smart, you should hear me. How am I supposed to work out the right God with so many to choose from. i.e. If there is anyone listening tell me about it.
Within 2 weeks Our parents told us we were going to a Christian camp. I would describe my parents as agnostics.
I Learned about the bible through reference. I learned about Christianity, because the people acted like someone would say th...

When I was 10 I decided there was a choice between God and Oblivion as a possibility.
I decided oblivion didn't hold a grudge.
I didn't go to the bible. When I was 5 after hearing about hell at Sunday school, I refused to go back.
I went to the source. I Thought (prayed) Hey God ! whoever you are if you're so smart, you should hear me. How am I supposed to work out the right God with so many to choose from. i.e. If there is anyone listening tell me about it.
Within 2 weeks Our parents told us we were going to a Christian camp. I would describe my parents as agnostics.
I Learned about the bible through reference. I learned about Christianity, because the people acted like someone would say they expected Christians to act. They enjoyed being with people and knew their behavior would be an example to the kids watching.
Co-incidence ? Maybe, but that was the start of a long story.
Today some of the people who claim to represent the Christian faith are despicable, and their actions deter people from even looking for more than what they can hold in their hands

5. The Bible Says the Earth Is Small, Flat and Supported by Pillars

At one time, people believed that the world was flat. The Bible supports this view. This view of the flat earth is hinted at with the references to the “four corners” of the earth (bold emphasis added).

the damned text editor wiped out a scathing rebutal. (ha)

the word "corners" as given in the above translation is from the hebrew word kanaph and generally means extremity.
thus the passage could properly be refering to the "ends" of the earth or it's furthest reaches.

in revelation 7-1 "corners" is translated from the greek word gonia, if i remember corre...

5. The Bible Says the Earth Is Small, Flat and Supported by Pillars

At one time, people believed that the world was flat. The Bible supports this view. This view of the flat earth is hinted at with the references to the “four corners” of the earth (bold emphasis added).

the damned text editor wiped out a scathing rebutal. (ha)

the word "corners" as given in the above translation is from the hebrew word kanaph and generally means extremity.
thus the passage could properly be refering to the "ends" of the earth or it's furthest reaches.

in revelation 7-1 "corners" is translated from the greek word gonia, if i remember correctly, and here the passage seems to suggest the cardinal points.

lastly, 40:22 it is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers,

(however i will grant that the circle of the earth is being viewed from above and so a flat earth would still be possible.)

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@reidenshneider
I have 2 sources for the monkey story. Mindfart and whywontgodhealamputees. The amputee site has an excellent discussion against religion much like the one clipped here as well. It asks the question of why no amputees are ever healed in the excitement of so much faith healing. Sorry, tangent - just thought I'd point that out.

@debbyski
I would ask this question - why do you worship god? The 3 common religions of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism worship because of ...

@reidenshneider
I have 2 sources for the monkey story. Mindfart and whywontgodhealamputees. The amputee site has an excellent discussion against religion much like the one clipped here as well. It asks the question of why no amputees are ever healed in the excitement of so much faith healing. Sorry, tangent - just thought I'd point that out.

@debbyski
I would ask this question - why do you worship god? The 3 common religions of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism worship because of fear - "worship me or suffer eternity" - while many others required worship for favored outlook and influence. You describe more of a philosophy of life rather than the worship of a god.

The parables that you brought up can be used by anyone simply as a means of teaching people how to be kinder to one another or to live life more wisely. As I've stated before, these things are just as effective without being tied to religion. It really does nothing to prove, or support the idea, of any god. It merely suggests that people take good ideas and attribute them to their idea of god to reaffirming their belief and provide a form of validation.

There is no doubting that there is some good in the bible for helping people to live well with one another and respect one another. But even Charles Dickens "A christmas Carol" teaches us the power of friendship, good deeds, and altruism. Nearly any story or novel you read has some moral statement or life lesson or something that we can learn from in it. This kind of wisdom is simply central to a successful society and I encourage teachings such as that. Its the effects of religion that are destructive - obediance, unquestioning belief, servitude, fear, intollerance, "us" and "them" catagorization, ostricizing those that don't conform, etc.

@pokkets
Yes, in fact, it was coincidence. Consider that people ask for signs from god all the time. Don't you think that other kids have, at some time, done that exact same thing, but they went to different types of camps or saw different things that they just attributed as a message from god to answer their question? I think your camp would have been pretty crowded had any real god been answering the questions of children.

I recall asking god (in my young fervent believer years) if I was doing well in my faith and if he was proud of me. I was in the back of a car as my family drove through town on the way to church. I felt I had been being especially good and holy because I had taken up p...

@pokkets
Yes, in fact, it was coincidence. Consider that people ask for signs from god all the time. Don't you think that other kids have, at some time, done that exact same thing, but they went to different types of camps or saw different things that they just attributed as a message from god to answer their question? I think your camp would have been pretty crowded had any real god been answering the questions of children.

I recall asking god (in my young fervent believer years) if I was doing well in my faith and if he was proud of me. I was in the back of a car as my family drove through town on the way to church. I felt I had been being especially good and holy because I had taken up preaching to the other kids at school (yah, I was one o THOSE kids). I asked god for a sign to tell me how pleased he was. As I opened my eyes from my prayer the first thing I saw was "HELL" in my vision and it upset me very much. It was a SHELL gas station sign, but my sitting angle was such that the "S" was blocked.

That message from god wrecked my world for a long time. I was only 8 or 9 years old and I believed god just told me that I was going to hell. I redoubled my efforts to be a good Christian and got beat up in school often for my preaching. But I took it as Jesus said, and turned the other cheek and kept at it.

Many times later I would pray to god again if I was finally doing good and if he was proud with no answer - well, one time I did get "BUY A FORD TODAY!" but eventually it dawned on me because of other coincidental events in my life that god did not leave me a message. I wanted a sign so my mind created one.

God is always found in the questionable because an unexplainable god means people can grasp at straws to believe. Coincidence or god? People like to choose god because it makes them feel better to believe that god has talked tothem. It makes you feel special, or validated, or warned, or just plain important enough for god to have talked to you.

@reidenschneider

the word "corners" as given in the above translation is from the hebrew word kanaph and generally means extremity.
thus the passage could properly be refering to the "ends" of the earth or it's furthest reaches.

Extrimity also indicates "a limb of the body" or "protrusion or appendage" or "external extension that projects from a main source" or "An end of an elongated or pointed structure" or "A bodily limb or appendage".

lastly, 40:22 it is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers,

Imagine standing on a mountain on clear day and looking as far as the eye can see...

@reidenschneider

the word "corners" as given in the above translation is from the hebrew word kanaph and generally means extremity.
thus the passage could properly be refering to the "ends" of the earth or it's furthest reaches.

Extrimity also indicates "a limb of the body" or "protrusion or appendage" or "external extension that projects from a main source" or "An end of an elongated or pointed structure" or "A bodily limb or appendage".

lastly, 40:22 it is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers,

Imagine standing on a mountain on clear day and looking as far as the eye can see. If you believe in a flat world of 4 corners then you would expect to see an edge or corner - but instead you see the edge of the horizon regardless of what direction you looked all around. Wouldn't a natural conclusion be that you are looking at the edges of a great flat circle?

okjbyers said:

In the Bible we have a God-given Instruction Manual on how to live this God-given life

If you truly believe that, then I highly advise you to take this quiz

okjbyers said:

then when the answer comes we can know clearly if it is from Him, as it will be 100% Scriptural

I suspect you are trolling, but in the interest of trying to take you serious ...

First, it is quite clear that no 2 people can get in the bible and come away with the exact same message. This is why we not only have literally dozens of Christian religions, but we have hundreds of offshoots within those. Why is this? You have to accept that within every re...

okjbyers said:

In the Bible we have a God-given Instruction Manual on how to live this God-given life

If you truly believe that, then I highly advise you to take this quiz

okjbyers said:

then when the answer comes we can know clearly if it is from Him, as it will be 100% Scriptural

I suspect you are trolling, but in the interest of trying to take you serious ...

First, it is quite clear that no 2 people can get in the bible and come away with the exact same message. This is why we not only have literally dozens of Christian religions, but we have hundreds of offshoots within those. Why is this? You have to accept that within every religion you are going to find people who truly want to only please and serve god. If they are truly trying to find god why is he giving them all a different messages?

Second, you cannot seriously try to claim (with a straight face) that the bible is inerrant, accurate, completely factual, unedited, and non contradictory. Nor can you claim it is purely literal or purely metaphorical. In fact nearly every scripture can be taken either way, depending on what message the reader is trying to present. So who determines what is what if everyone reads it differently (even those that are committed to god!)

Finally, we KNOW that the bible has been altered through the years to reflect various political climates. Even the words of Jesus cannot be accepted as original. There is also problems of the bible plagiarizing earlier pagan religions and you can see how completely delusional it is to try and take it as truthful or accurate.

If everyone seeking god came away with the same message, you might have something to argue. Unfortunately its quite clear that people come away with the message that they want to hear. Even IF you accept the entire bible as factual, then you have to cherry pick it to get those "god is love" messages.

The bible is only true if you refuse to believe it is not.

plkbuers said:

I'm no theologian or scholar of any sort but in my opinion the problem is kumans(sic) trying by themselves to interpret rightly that which only God's Spirit can.

The thing is, you are not listening to your own words. Look, there are only 3 ways for people to get "God's message".

• Their clergy tells them
  
• They are inspired through the bible
  
• They are inspired through prayer and "talking" to god
  

The only element of this equation is the human mind. There is no "god" or "god's spirit" talking to people - otherwise those that were really trying to find god would get the same message - yet everyone gets a different message. So either god is sile...

plkbuers said:

I'm no theologian or scholar of any sort but in my opinion the problem is kumans(sic) trying by themselves to interpret rightly that which only God's Spirit can.

The thing is, you are not listening to your own words. Look, there are only 3 ways for people to get "God's message".

• Their clergy tells them
  
• They are inspired through the bible
  
• They are inspired through prayer and "talking" to god
  

The only element of this equation is the human mind. There is no "god" or "god's spirit" talking to people - otherwise those that were really trying to find god would get the same message - yet everyone gets a different message. So either god is silent or there is not one person that god has felt worthy of inspiring If that is the case after all this time then what is the point? So when you say "the problem is humans trying by themselves to interpret" its like you are saying the "the reason apples don't make orange juice is because the apples rely on their own juice instead of that of oranges".

Now, if god were really commnicating to people then one of those methods would be giving people the exact same message. The plain and simple fact is that there is no god giving a message. People are coming up with a message that they feel is right based on their own personality, and then attributing that epitomy to god.

You say its because humans are trying to interpret "that which only God's Spirit can". The obvious question is then how do they get the help of God's Spirit in order to interpret what god wants?

You cannot say "you just have to have faith and pray" because people do do that yet still come away with different and conflicting answers.

Please explain to me how it is that you think people gain inspiration from "God's Spirit" so that they can interpret the bible correctly and clearly and understand what god want's them to do.

I really like that answer, okfjbyers.

So when you say "the problem is humans trying by themselves to interpret"
its like you are saying the "the reason apples don't make orange juice
is because the apples rely on their own juice instead of that of
oranges".

Methinks that is one very bad comparison. I will know for certain once I finish translating it.

You say its because humans are trying to interpret "that which only God's Spirit can". The obvious question is then how do they get the help of God's Spirit in order to interpret what god wants?

One gets the help of God's Spirit by walking in the Spirit. How does one walk in the Spirit? Through fa...

I really like that answer, okfjbyers.

So when you say "the problem is humans trying by themselves to interpret"
its like you are saying the "the reason apples don't make orange juice
is because the apples rely on their own juice instead of that of
oranges".

Methinks that is one very bad comparison. I will know for certain once I finish translating it.

You say its because humans are trying to interpret "that which only God's Spirit can". The obvious question is then how do they get the help of God's Spirit in order to interpret what god wants?

One gets the help of God's Spirit by walking in the Spirit. How does one walk in the Spirit? Through faith. How does one get more faith? By reading the Word of God.

You cannot expect to read your Bible for five minutes and come away knowing all the mysteries of the universe.

okjbyers said:

I perceive that you are very educated and eloquent in your chosen path through life... God Himself is my assurance.

In other words, no matter how compelling, supported, and logical my points are you refuse to entertain the possibility that your god belief is wrong. Thus the curse of faith.

okjybers said:

Eternity holds no threat for me.

Obviously it does or you would not try to appease a god in order to protect your belief of existence after death. That is why its called a fear based religion.

okjybers said:

Jesus lives

Then please present him. Jesus exists only in a book that has been proven to be a pretty poor example of divinity. I would love to se...

read more»

okjbyers said:

I perceive that you are very educated and eloquent in your chosen path through life... God Himself is my assurance.

In other words, no matter how compelling, supported, and logical my points are you refuse to entertain the possibility that your god belief is wrong. Thus the curse of faith.

okjybers said:

Eternity holds no threat for me.

Obviously it does or you would not try to appease a god in order to protect your belief of existence after death. That is why its called a fear based religion.

okjybers said:

Jesus lives

Then please present him. Jesus exists only in a book that has been proven to be a pretty poor example of divinity. I would love to see if you have anything that could prove otherwise.

jstates1 said:

One gets the help of God's Spirit by walking in the Spirit. ... Through faith. ... By reading the Word of God.

A great example of circular logic! Re-read this entire discussion, examine the points I made and actually try to understand them, then re-read your statement and see how incredibly circular that was.

jstates said:

You cannot expect to read your Bible for five minutes and come away knowing all the mysteries of the universe.

Your assumption that I, or nearly any opponent of religion, has not read, studied, and researched the bible extensively only shows your arrogance and ignorance.

No one suggests coming away knowing all, either inside, or outside the bible. But the bible does make claims that we can examine and it is obvious that the bible is a conglomeration of man written texts created to unify religion for easier control of people. In fact, religion advocates that mankind give up the pursuit of knowledge and simply stick with "god did it" so I certainly know that you are not going to learn the mysteries of the universe from the bible no matter how long you read it.

Repost for legibility :

okjbyers said:

I perceive that you are very educated and eloquent in your chosen path through life... God Himself is my assurance.

In other words, no matter how compelling, supported, and logical my points are you refuse to entertain the possibility that your god belief is wrong. Thus the curse of faith.

okjybers said:

Eternity holds no threat for me.

Obviously it does or you would not try to appease a god in order to protect your belief of existence after death. That is why its called a fear based religion.

okjybers said:

Jesus lives

Then please present him. Jesus exists only in a book that has been proven to be a pretty poor example of di...

Repost for legibility :

okjbyers said:

I perceive that you are very educated and eloquent in your chosen path through life... God Himself is my assurance.

In other words, no matter how compelling, supported, and logical my points are you refuse to entertain the possibility that your god belief is wrong. Thus the curse of faith.

okjybers said:

Eternity holds no threat for me.

Obviously it does or you would not try to appease a god in order to protect your belief of existence after death. That is why its called a fear based religion.

okjybers said:

Jesus lives

Then please present him. Jesus exists only in a book that has been proven to be a pretty poor example of divinity. I would love to see if you have anything that could prove otherwise.

jstates1 said:

One gets the help of God's Spirit by walking in the Spirit. ... Through faith. ... By reading the Word of God.

A great example of circular logic! Re-read this entire discussion, examine the points I made and actually try to understand them, then re-read your statement and see how incredibly circular that was.

jstates said:

You cannot expect to read your Bible for five minutes and come away knowing all the mysteries of the universe.

Your assumption that I, or nearly any opponent of religion, has not read, studied, and researched the bible extensively only shows your arrogance and ignorance.

No one suggests coming away knowing all, either inside, or outside the bible. But the bible does make claims that we can examine and it is obvious that the bible is a conglomeration of man written texts created to unify religion for easier control of people. In fact, religion advocates that mankind give up the pursuit of knowledge and simply stick with "god did it" so I certainly know that you are not going to learn the mysteries of the universe from the bible no matter how long you read it.

One gets the help of God's Spirit by walking in the Spirit. How does one walk in the Spirit? Through faith. How does one get more faith? By reading the Word of God.

Just a quick comment:

Staying on topic, (that is God vs the Bible), it should be noted that the author makes an extremely strong case as follows:

The Universe was created by god. (He's a Deist. I would have said "If the universe was created by god...)

Nature, the laws that govern the universe, also created by god "which no human invention can counterfeit or alter" (Thomas Pain) speaks to Man universally. That is...

God's true word, which CANNOT be altered, is Nature and what it teaches u...

One gets the help of God's Spirit by walking in the Spirit. How does one walk in the Spirit? Through faith. How does one get more faith? By reading the Word of God.

Just a quick comment:

Staying on topic, (that is God vs the Bible), it should be noted that the author makes an extremely strong case as follows:

The Universe was created by god. (He's a Deist. I would have said "If the universe was created by god...)

Nature, the laws that govern the universe, also created by god "which no human invention can counterfeit or alter" (Thomas Pain) speaks to Man universally. That is...

God's true word, which CANNOT be altered, is Nature and what it teaches us (i.e., what we learn from science).

So you have ONE book of god, WRITTEN BY GOD, and another book of god written by man. The one written by man, we continually alter. The one written by god, we cannot alter.

So it would follow that...

The bible should agree with every fact of Nature if it were truly inspired by god.

Since it rarely does, it could hardly have been written by or inspired by the same god that created the universe.


PS: Are you sure you're waliking in god's spirit, since you're getting it from the bible? Or are you unknowingly walking in Man's spirit?

Your faith stops you from knowing, since it is epistemologically invalid.

Oortcloud:

A great example of circular logic! Re-read this entire discussion,
examine the points I made and actually try to understand them, then
re-read your statement and see how incredibly circular that was.

There is a difference between circular logic and the description of a circular process. If you want an example from the hard sciences, look up the Krebb's Cycle. A cyclical process.

Oortcloud:

Your assumption that I, or nearly any opponent of religion, has not
read, studied, and researched the bible extensively only shows your
arrogance and ignorance.

You're right, I wasn't thinking when I wrote that part. I apologize. I ought to know better, since ...

Oortcloud:

A great example of circular logic! Re-read this entire discussion,
examine the points I made and actually try to understand them, then
re-read your statement and see how incredibly circular that was.

There is a difference between circular logic and the description of a circular process. If you want an example from the hard sciences, look up the Krebb's Cycle. A cyclical process.

Oortcloud:

Your assumption that I, or nearly any opponent of religion, has not
read, studied, and researched the bible extensively only shows your
arrogance and ignorance.

You're right, I wasn't thinking when I wrote that part. I apologize. I ought to know better, since I know many unbelievers who know the Bible better than I do.

So it would follow that...
The bible should agree with every fact of Nature if it were truly inspired by god.

OK, granted, but who is going to be the impartial, infallible judge of whether the Bible matches up with Nature? Science? Science is just a tool. Human beings? Human beings are so flawed it's not even funny.

Until we know everything, it will be difficult to really say whether the Bible corresponds with Nature or not. At least empirically.

I should also point out that the Bible (read in English) is a translated work. Indeed, many English Bibles embody two or more translational steps. The KJV was translated out of the original languages, and so (in my estimation) is a reliable translation, but there still is a lot of meaning that is left out, and a lot of words that could be ambiguous. Hebrew is not a very precise language, compared to modern English. And the Hebrews were not a scientifically knowledgeable people. Even if God had revealed all the secrets of the universe to Moses, how would Moses have recorded them all? The language to do so simply didn't exist.

jstates1 said:

There is a difference between circular logic and the description of a circular process

Let's not degenerate into semantics. The point of the statement is that everyone who studies the bible and seeks guidance comes away with a different message and you said that only happens because people don't take god on faith or by reading the word of god! That is a circular statement. It simply amazes me that you cannot recognize the cognizant dissonance of your own statement.

jstates1 said:

Human beings are so flawed it's not even funny.

This statement requires that one not only believes in the biblical god, but also accepts that humanity is incapable of understanding n...

jstates1 said:

There is a difference between circular logic and the description of a circular process

Let's not degenerate into semantics. The point of the statement is that everyone who studies the bible and seeks guidance comes away with a different message and you said that only happens because people don't take god on faith or by reading the word of god! That is a circular statement. It simply amazes me that you cannot recognize the cognizant dissonance of your own statement.

jstates1 said:

Human beings are so flawed it's not even funny.

This statement requires that one not only believes in the biblical god, but also accepts that humanity is incapable of understanding nature and reality. You are wrong both counts. This topic already discusses why the biblical god is unlikely, and we have ample evidence that mankind not only can understand nature and reality but can manipulate it.

We understand nature through observation and through that nature we understand reality. If something exists outside of nature then it exists outside of reality and therefore cannot be experienced. This includes god - so if you want to label god as supernatural or unnatural then you have to also accept that god cannot interact with us else it becomes natural, observable, measurable, and testable.

Our minds are quite competent to make a distinction between fantasy and reality based upon evidence presented and the bible simply weighs heavily on the fantasy side.

AcesLucky said:

I wanted to add the perspective of the author as a Deist

Please, I don't mean to be hogging the discussion. I don't think enough people question religion and its sources and wish more would speak out. Deism, while not being atheistic, certainly argues against the validity of todays organized religion so for all intents and purposes both speak from the same platform, IMO. It's good you remind us of the source.

@jstates1

If we cannot perfectly explain Nature, how can we say the Bible doesn't?

Not explain, agree. Does the bible "agree" with nature?

Note: on the thread One universe, under God, I listed several instances where the bible does not agree with nature (Day 1 through Day 4 of creation are all factual errors that any god would know).

Are you honestly suggesting, for example, that the earth is the oldest object in the entire universe? [At roughly 10K years old, made on Day 1?]

Even the ORDER of creation as described by the bible would have to be false, would it not? Wouldn't the sun need to be created BEFORE the plants, since plants rely on photosynth...

@jstates1

If we cannot perfectly explain Nature, how can we say the Bible doesn't?

Not explain, agree. Does the bible "agree" with nature?

Note: on the thread One universe, under God, I listed several instances where the bible does not agree with nature (Day 1 through Day 4 of creation are all factual errors that any god would know).

Are you honestly suggesting, for example, that the earth is the oldest object in the entire universe? [At roughly 10K years old, made on Day 1?]

Even the ORDER of creation as described by the bible would have to be false, would it not? Wouldn't the sun need to be created BEFORE the plants, since plants rely on photosynthesis to survive?

The god that created both, would know that. Whoever wrote the bible did not.

(There are numerous instances where the bible does not agree with Nature, and we're not even half-way through the first page!)

Are you sure you agree that Nature was written by god?

Are you honestly suggesting, for example, that the earth is the oldest
object in the entire universe? [At roughly 10K years old, made on Day
1?]

No. The Bible seems to suggest that there were "waters" pre-existing the Creation. Also, the first thing God created was "light," which can perhaps be referring to energy.

Even the ORDER of creation as described by the bible would
have to be false, would it not? Wouldn't the sun need to be created
BEFORE the plants, since plants rely on photosynthesis to survive?

No. Do plants die during the night-time? What about Alaska, where things get pretty dark for months on end? Plants still live there. If it was only a ma...

Are you honestly suggesting, for example, that the earth is the oldest
object in the entire universe? [At roughly 10K years old, made on Day
1?]

No. The Bible seems to suggest that there were "waters" pre-existing the Creation. Also, the first thing God created was "light," which can perhaps be referring to energy.

Even the ORDER of creation as described by the bible would
have to be false, would it not? Wouldn't the sun need to be created
BEFORE the plants, since plants rely on photosynthesis to survive?

No. Do plants die during the night-time? What about Alaska, where things get pretty dark for months on end? Plants still live there. If it was only a matter of a day until God created the sun, then no problem.

Are you sure you agree that Nature was written by god?

Yes, I am sure.

Yes, I am sure.

That's good enough for me. Because...

What the bible "seems to suggest" or "which can perhaps be referring to" may someday give way to ... what it actually says.

See, the "waters preexisting creation..." doesn't really matter if you made it up to explain a problem or not.

What matters is that the bible actually says the earth was made on Day 1. What matters is that the bible actually says the stars were made on Day 4.

What matters is does it actually agree with god's OTHER book, Nature?

Because it is at that moment the force of your faith will rearrange things to better represent (in your own words) "Nature is r...

Yes, I am sure.

That's good enough for me. Because...

What the bible "seems to suggest" or "which can perhaps be referring to" may someday give way to ... what it actually says.

See, the "waters preexisting creation..." doesn't really matter if you made it up to explain a problem or not.

What matters is that the bible actually says the earth was made on Day 1. What matters is that the bible actually says the stars were made on Day 4.

What matters is does it actually agree with god's OTHER book, Nature?

Because it is at that moment the force of your faith will rearrange things to better represent (in your own words) "Nature is reality; and if the Bible is true, it must portray reality."

Based on what it actually says...does it?

okjfbyers said:

Fear of God? As in 'afraid of'? No.

Call it what you want to allow yourself an easier way of accepting it, but in the end, its still a fear based system. Believe and obey or else. The choice is salvation or hell. Are you afraid of hell? Of damnation?

How can you claim that your belief isn't fear based? It is no better than someone holding a gun to your head and saying "Be my friend or die". I don't care how nice you think that guy is, he's using fear to influence your decision.

okjfbyers said:

Yet ever available to all who would call upon Him.

This is absolutely not true. Please don't try and preach. If the bible cannot withstand critical analysis then I c...

okjfbyers said:

Fear of God? As in 'afraid of'? No.

Call it what you want to allow yourself an easier way of accepting it, but in the end, its still a fear based system. Believe and obey or else. The choice is salvation or hell. Are you afraid of hell? Of damnation?

How can you claim that your belief isn't fear based? It is no better than someone holding a gun to your head and saying "Be my friend or die". I don't care how nice you think that guy is, he's using fear to influence your decision.

okjfbyers said:

Yet ever available to all who would call upon Him.

This is absolutely not true. Please don't try and preach. If the bible cannot withstand critical analysis then I certainly am not going to accept your words simply based on what you've cherry picked from it.

okfjbyers said:

if Jesus were to show Himself to you whist you do not believe in Him, would you then believe it is indeed He

If the Toothfairy were to show himself to you whilst you do not believe in Him, would you then believe? Yet one more logical fallacy argument. Or how about Allah? Or Zeus? Or Ra or Horus?

On the other hand, yes, if god or Jesus did appear before me with the intent of showing me truth then yes, I would believe. How could I not if they are the creator? If they would want me to know, I would know! So where are they?

You act like it is a failing of mine not to recognize what you have deemed the creator when you do it to so may other man made gods. The god you believe in has as little proof as they, but you accept this one simply because of your cultural heritage and geological birthplace.

It's also revealing that the current fad is to remake god into a 60's version of hippie love and ignore all the darker stuff about him in the bible. If god is eternal and perfect, why does he need such a new makeover?

Seems okfjbyers took the Bible Quiz Test I presented and didn't like how it turned out. He posted to my admittedly outdated blog about his feelings on it :

okfjbyers said:

I hope you realize that quiz is rigged… it’s programmed to say that every answer is incorrect. Take the quiz twice, and answer differently. It changes the answers and so-called “explanations/evidence.” That’s a bit immature of you to post. Either that or you’re simply retarded.

Well, okfjbyers, lets take a ride on the clue train before it passes you by! The test shows you that the bible is full of contradiction. The test doesn't cheat, it ...

Seems okfjbyers took the Bible Quiz Test I presented and didn't like how it turned out. He posted to my admittedly outdated blog about his feelings on it :

okfjbyers said:

I hope you realize that quiz is rigged… it’s programmed to say that every answer is incorrect. Take the quiz twice, and answer differently. It changes the answers and so-called “explanations/evidence.” That’s a bit immature of you to post. Either that or you’re simply retarded.

Well, okfjbyers, lets take a ride on the clue train before it passes you by! The test shows you that the bible is full of contradiction. The test doesn't cheat, it only points out the irrationality of using the bible as a foundation to your belief. It's interesting how you ignore the scriptural evidence provided on the test and immediately go into denial mode and accuse the test of "cheating".

Another prime example how a believer will go to lengths to protect their god belief - I'm only surprised you didn't play the "out of context" card. But I suppose denial and ad hominem gives you 2 out of 3. God forbid if you actually thought about it (pun definitely intended).

Maybe you should try a new test? It's not as automatic as the prior quiz because you will have to write your answers down and then grade yourself (be honest!). No worries here okfjbyers, I'm sure you will score high.